Antonín Kokeš: We saw great bakeries in Germany and France – I said, Why don’t we have it here?
Antonín Kokeš is the man behind Antonínovo pekařství, a successful chain of bakeries. The Moravian-born entrepreneur is also the owner of Albi, a company best-known for the board games that can be found in many Czech homes. We discussed both those businesses and much more at Kokeš’s latest venture, a new branch of Antonín’s Bakery due to open on May 1 in a grand building on Prague’s Náměstí Míru.
You’ve said in the past that your grandfather was your role model in business. I presume he was doing business before the communist era began?
“He started his business around 1915. He was a salesman, selling ‘white cloth’. I don’t really know what that means today.
“He had a specialty store and his main business was going to the markets.
“I grew up in Vyškov, a quite small city near Brno, and nearby is the Křtiny Church, which is a legendary place for pilgrimages, and he went there to sell at the markets there.”
Also when you were a kid he built for you and your brother a wooden shop, or something like that?
“Yes, we were trading all the time, with my brother. We made fake money [laughs], so that was maybe my first business experience.”
Do you think that stood you in good stead when communism fell and you could start doing business? Were you already kind of business-minded?
“I don’t know. I was first of all drinking-minded [laughs].”
Well you were a student, right?
“I didn’t have it in my head really to have a business, but I wanted to do something on my own.”
“I was in my first or second year. I think maybe it wasn’t that I was business-minded but I really wanted to do things on my own, in my way.
“I didn’t have it in my head really to have a business, but I wanted to do something on my own.
“My friend and I started making photographs, black and white, and that was a lot of fun, so we had a little business there too.”
Your company Albi started selling postcards on Old Town Square in Prague, is that correct?
“Correct. We saw an opportunity. Tourists were coming but you couldn’t buy a postcard normally, because they were sold behind the counter.
“So we started selling postcards.”
In those days how many were you selling a year, for example?
“The first day we sold a box, so it was 1,000 postcards a day. Gradually we were selling millions.”
“That’s a tough question [laughs] – it’s 30-plus years, 34 exactly.
“You know, the first day we sold a box, so it was 1,000 cards a day. And I think gradually we were selling millions.”
You started with postcards but then your company Albi, which now you are the sole owner of, expanded into board games and gifts. You also have a network of shops in Czechia and Slovakia. When you license games from other companies or other countries, how do you know which ones are going to work for the local market?
“Whenever you do licensing – it’s not only games, but games are a little bit tougher than other things – the first thing is to understand the difference between the audiences.
“For instance, I can give a really good example: Bang! It’s one of the most successful games on the Czech market but it doesn’t work in other markets so well.
“I know that we are one of the best-selling countries on the globe, because I think that Czechs really like fun, fun games, and tricking – because Bang! is about hiding and tricking.
“So the only way we can do it is we test and play and give the games to friends that can give you really honest feedback on whether they like them or not.”
Do you tweak the games for the Czech market?
“Oh yes. Sometimes the rules are complicated and we make rules that are a little bit easier. Or sometimes we make some variations.
“But to be honest the basis of the game must remain, so we don’t, like, change the rules.”
When it comes to older games like for example Ludo – which in Czech is called Člověče, nezlob se! – I presume there’s no copyright or anything? Are they like old books in that regard?
“Yes. You know, this is quite funny, because people think that Ludo is thousands of years old, but it’s not. It’s like Scrabble, it’s quite a new game actually [laughs]. Or Monopoly.
“But yes, for Ludo I don’t think you have special rights.”
When the company was taking off in the initial years, you went abroad to study, you went to the University of Pittsburgh in the States to do an MBA. Why Pittsburgh?
“Maybe I can a little bit correct you. Because it was a foreign university, an American one, but I studied most of the time here.
“That was for me the crucial point – I could not afford to go abroad for a long time, because I was still running the company, almost every day.
“But I had the chance, because we were two owners in the beginning, so I could say, Now I’m off for one month.
“So I spent one month at the university and then I returned.
“And I really liked the programme, because it was designed for managers with some experience.
“It was very helpful that it was not only theory – we discussed many business cases. But also I shared knowledge, I shared a know-how approach to problem-solving with managers who were many times more experienced.”
Is it the case also that in America you somehow worked with Hallmark?
“There’s a little bit of a connection. You know, the American dream, or America for business, is obviously a source of inspiration.
“And Hallmark is our long-term partner. I admire the company for its history.
“They’ve celebrated 100 years and it’s the fourth generation now running the business; it’s still a family business, which in a way I admire.
“I know that for many businessmen the ultimate goal is to do an IPO on some stock market, but I think there is a big value in the family business.”
In what sense is Hallmark your partner?
“We are a licensing partner but it’s not only licensing the product: it’s sharing know-how.
“We visit each other very often, we have seminars, and we share – we share the know-how, we share the approach to the customer, to the market, especially here in the European region, where the differences between the markets are huge in the card business.
“It’s so helpful to understand how to approach different customers.”
Here in Czechia Albi is known every household, everybody has your games and other products. I was reading that in recent years you have also made some inroads into the Polish market, but that was difficult initially. Why was it hard? And far have you gotten in Poland?
“The way people in Poland do business is different. I don’t know to say it’s worse or better, they do just it slightly differently.”
“OK, now I can be a little but more optimistic [laughs], but if you asked the same question five years ago I would be telling a completely different story.
“In the end, we are very successful on the Polish market. We have fantastic cover with our product with the pen [Tolki, an electronic speaking pen].
“It’s a very difficult market to be honest – we struggled for many years, almost 15 years.
“I underestimated the difference between the customers and between the business partners.
“The way people in Poland do business is different. I don’t know to say it’s worse or better, they do just it slightly differently.
“For instance, they are more open to new suppliers. Here we are very traditional businessmen: If we have a good partner – it’s the same with me – we work with them and if someone new comes we say, I already have someone.
“But in Poland if you knock on the door and say, We’ll be your new supplier, they say, OK, let’s try.
“So that was the first lesson I learned. Another lesson that I learned in Poland was that people have different humour, a different style.
“You think, We are Slavic nations, they speak a very similar language, they have a similar history.
“But the humour is far, far different.”
Is it the case also that you’re planning to do more business in America in the future?
“Oh yes. We just recently had a show at a trade fair in Philadelphia, which was very lucky for me because it’s very close to Pittsburgh [laughs].
“I was happy that we could a little bit put our toes in the water and feel what it’s like.
“Hallmark is our long-term partner. I admire the company for its history.”
“We are already selling a couple of products there, we have many customers. We also work with Amazon Supply Chain.
“So I think there is great potential. But you know, it’s a big market, so the problems are there.”
Is there a danger also that Trump’s economic policies could somehow impact your plans?
“Oh, I never thought about this. Maybe yes, maybe no.
“I don’t think that politicians have such big influence on business.
“Obviously, they have a big influence, like now with the tariffs, but I think in a couple of months business will go its own way.
“I think it’s the same in the Czech Republic: We watch politics, but normal life many times goes its own way.”
Eleven years ago you entered a different business, the bakery business, with bakeries called Antonínovo pekařství, or Antonín’s bakery. What led you to try that whole area?
“[Laughs] You know, the original idea, when I really started thinking about the business, was my journey or pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela.
“That was my 10-year, stage-by-stage journey. We didn’t make it all in one go, because it’s 2,500 kilometres from Prague to Santiago.
“But in Germany and in Switzerland and in France we saw so many bakeries and cafés where you could have a really easy coffee and just have a chat with friends.
“And I said, Why don’t we have it here [laughs]?
“Especially in France, where you have the boulanger artisan – bakeries where you bake on the spot and where the baker really works with dough; there are no frozen or pre-baked products.
“And I really loved the atmosphere, so I said, Let’s try this on the Czech market.
“I had many visits to friends who work in this field and they all said, Please don’t start this business [laughs] – it’s so difficult and risky.”
What do you think you’ve done right, in that case?
“It’s so hard to answer. Because there are many factors, it’s a big puzzle – there is not one thing.
“I think the right thing was that I focused on a quality product, but not overpriced. Many times, I think, the problem is that you do a really great product, but it’s too pricey.
“I think the right thing [with the bakeries] was that I focused on a quality product, but not overpriced.”
“So we definitely had to have higher prices than in a supermarket.
“The thing is, I wanted to have high-quality bread and I said, The price must be more than 50 or 60 crowns.
“In those days that was really quite a lot for bread. You could buy it for 20 crowns in a store.
“But I said, A pack of cigarettes is 100 crowns, and people buy them every day, or one beer is 40 crowns – why won’t people pay so much for bread?
“So I thought, Yes, people will buy bread for 60 or 70 crowns.”
When you first started what did a rohlík [bread roll] cost?
“Our rohlík cost three crowns, as far as I remember.”
And now it’s six crowns, is it?
“It differs – it goes from four or five up to 12.”
When you increase the prices, which you have to do, is that something you give a lot of thought to? I know people do react badly when they see that a rohlík now costs 10 crowns or whatever.
“We try to be as sensitive as possible, but sometimes if all the inputs go up you have to… it’s a business, it’s not my hobby.
“People think it’s my hobby and I say, Definitely, I like it as a hobby, but if the hobby is losing money it’s not a good hobby [laughs].”
You also have a type of bread called Antonín’s bread and as I say the bakery is named after you. Why use your own name?
“When I was young Antonín was a very old-fashioned name. Now it’s in.”
“I didn’t want to, to be honest [laughs]. But some people said, It’s a great name for a baker.
“I said, I’m not a baker, I’m the manager of a bakery. They said, People won’t care – it’s a nice name for a bakery [laughs].
“So for the first time in my life I had to accept my name. Because I didn’t really like it. You know, when I was young it was a very old-fashioned name.
“Now it’s in, people like the old-style names, but many friends still call me Tony, because my English teacher started calling me Tony and I thought it was very cool.
“So all my life I lived with the name Tony and now I saw ‘Antonín’s bakery’ and it took me a while to adapt [laughs].”
We’re here at your latest branch, which is on Náměstí Míru, behind St. Ludmila’s Church. It’s frankly an amazing space. What was here before?
“This place has a long history. It started as a café. We found this huge painting on the wall that was covered for many, many years with white plaster – and suddenly someone uncovered this amazing painting.
“That resembles the transportation of products from the Orient to Europe. That’s why you see the horses…”
Was that the Silk Road?
“I don’t know! It was decoration for the Café Republika, because it was built during the era of the First Republic.
“Then it served as a cafeteria or dining room for the Archbishop’s gymnazium.”
That’s a school right next door?
“Yes. It was owned by the same owners, the Sisters of St. Francis of Assisi.”
Did you have to deal with the nuns to get this space? Was it they who leased it to you?
“It was a very long story. They had already decided what to do here but I said I was a better tenant – so they rethought their decision and did a special competition for the tenant.
“I think we persuaded them that the fit with this building and the space and what we would do would be best.”
Given that you bake on the spot, so to speak, was this space suitable to bake in?
“At first sight it was very difficult to imagine a bakery here, because the set-up is a little bit complicated.
“But after a couple of meetings with architects and designers we decided on this layout.
“We had to a little bit take out space that was designed for seating, but we said that it was more important to create an atmosphere, that you could see how the bakers prepare the bread – and that we would create more seating in front of the building, where you have a fantastic view of Náměstí Míru and St. Ludmila’s Church.”
Earlier you showed me the baking area and to be honest I don’t think any baker in the world has such a lovely space to work in.
“Yes [laughs], it’s amazing. It was a tough decision too, to give such a beautiful space this kind of engineering and baking and industrial feel.
“But I think people like it – to have the atmosphere where you feel you are in one space; that’s why you see most things are very open. You can really touch the baker, almost.”
It’s also a bigger space than some of your other branches and you were saying there’s going to be something new here that you didn’t have in your previous outlets?
“Yes. The basic idea remains the same but we want to provide more things for having a small lunch or break.
“So we have a bigger choice of soups and then special pomazánka, which is a spread but it’s a mix with salad, which is also in Czech not a salad [laughs]; it’s pochoutkový salát, a nasty thing that you eat with a roll.”
Well the word “salad” in Czech is very flexible, that’s all I can say.
“Definitely [laughs].”
Also here beside us there’s a kind of a hatch, a window basically, that you said was also used when this was a school facility.
“Yes. We didn’t know what to do with the window, but we wanted to keep the connection with the bakers, so you can see how things are prepared.
“We wanted to have a new one, because we were doing a reconstruction, but I kind of liked the style, because in all the dining halls in all the schools it’s the same system, with a window you push up and you the school meals through.
“And I said, Let’s keep it here to have a touch of the past, as a reminder. Because so many people come here and say, Oh, I remember that.
“So we kept it as a memory of the space.”
You also have a sports clothing brand called Kinoko and I was reading that when you began the company you literally Googled “how to start a fashion line” or something like that.
“Exactly [laughs]. When I start I always try to read something and try to learn from people that did it before.
“And now there’s the advantage of having even AI. I think it gives you a lot of inspiration.
“So yes, I started with ‘how to start a business in fashion’ [laughs].”
I also know that you lecture to young people about business and entrepreneurship. What are the main things that you tell them young people when you speak to them?
“First of all, I try to persuade them to start with mistakes, to persuade them that if you want to do something, you must make mistakes.
“That’s hard, because at school mistakes are not good. But in business they are very important.
“I try to persuade young people that if you want to do something, you must make mistakes.”
“If you want to start a business and avoid mistakes, don’t start a business. You must learn from mistakes, from your own and from others’.
“But you must go through mistakes and failures and bad decisions and bad connections. And sometimes people that just don’t trust you or you don’t work together very well.
“So this is for me a crucial point. If there’s something that didn’t work, just say, OK, it didn’t work – let’s try once more.”
You’re now in your fifties. When you meet these kids in their teens do you recognise anything of yourself, your young self, in them? Or has the era changed so much?
“[Laughs] Definitely the era has changed, because they have their mobile phones all the time with them, so it’s hard to talk with them and see that they’re looking at their phones.
“But I realised that I also wasn’t listening so much at school. It was like half and half, but it’s enough!
“That’s why I say that definitely, it’ so different.
“And then what I see is that they’re more open, in the way that they travel, that they have such big experience with the internet, they are global, with music, with know-how…”
Language.
“Language, yes. But in a way they are a little bit shyer.
“Because really the only problem I had was how to get cheap beer and now they are a little bit… scared, about the planet, about the future. That’s a difference.”
My final question: Do you have major plans for the future or are you quite content with your business empire as it now stands?
“My biggest plan is to survive the opening ceremony of this new bakery [laughs].
“And then I have no plans! So I have plans for the next six days.”
