Success, home, friendship focus of Marie Dvořáková’s new Marie Tomanová documentary
New documentary World Between Us follows Czech photographer Marie Tomanová as her career skyrockets in New York. The intimate film is also a portrait of Tomanová’s art historian husband, Thomas Beachdel – and reflects the close friendship between the photographer and its director, fellow Czech Marie Dvořáková. I caught up with Dvořáková, a one-time Student Oscar winner who has also spent a large part of her life in the US, days after the documentary’s world premiere.
What was the starting point for World Between Us?
“The starting point was back in 2018. Actually it was a year after I won the Student Oscar [for Who’s Who in Mycology] and I was having a lot of meetings, flying to L.A. a lot, and developing another project.
“Unfortunately that project just didn’t go through and I was a little bit depressed that I had to go through so many meetings.
“And then I met Marie Tomanová, who was an interesting, lovely character, a lovely young woman, and I realised that if I just borrowed a camera from friends, and a microphone, I can just start filming a portrait of her.”
And why did you want to do a portrait of Marie?
“I thought she was very spontaneous, talented. She reminded me of home. Back then I was in the US for 13 years and I spent most of my time with Americans.
“All of a sudden there was this young woman who was from the Czech Republic, we could speak Czech, we became friends and we got along very well.
“So I just thought I would start filming her.”
But it was also because, I guess, that you could imagine with her career beginning to take off that it could be a good story to follow – a young Czech woman trying to make it in the world of photography in New York?
“Yes, that was another reason. It was the change in an artist who’s unknown and whose career is slowly is starting to take off, so there was this moment.
“But obviously the film is not just about somebody’s career, because there are thousands of people who have careers who came from abroad and start a new life in New York City.
“I think there was also home and the connections to home. I was missing home a lot at the time and she was as well, and also she was travelling back to the Czech Republic after eight years that she was in the US.
“She didn’t have the right papers so she was basically undocumented in the US for eight years, and all of a sudden she got the papers, she got her travel document and she could return home.
“I was very much interested in that part of her story, because also I was later on going home so there were certain resemblances that I was intrigued by.”
One of the many things I like about the film was that it’s also a kind of story of your own friendship with her. Nobody else could have made such an intimate portrait of Marie.
“If I wouldn’t be able to get that close I would stop filming.”
“I think the fact we became friends helped a lot, because we spent a lot of time together. I gained her trust and that of her husband and they let me into their lives and I could film them pretty much all the time.
“I had a full-time job at the time so I was only filming after work and during the weekends. We spent a lot of time together.
“On the other hand, if I wouldn’t be able to get that close I probably wouldn’t be filming. If I would feel that they wouldn’t let me in, I would stop filming.”
We meet Marie’s husband Thomas Beachdel quite early in the film. He’s an art historian and theoretician. What part has he played in her success? How do they work together as a couple?
“I think they have a very symbiotic relationship. He’s a very calm, well-read intellectual. He’s professor at a university.
“I think he is like her mentor or guide. Marie talks openly about the fact she didn’t get such support when she studied art, or painting, at the university [in Brno].
“She almost quit her career as an artist, but then she met Thomas and I think he helped her with what she needed back then from the university.
“He was the teacher, he was the guide and the mentor who led her through the beginnings and who taught her a lot.
“I know that she values it and she’s super grateful, openly – she says that.”
At some points it almost looks like he’s kind of coaching her. She’s doing interviews on the phone and he’s telling her that answer was good, that was good, maybe that wasn’t so great.
“Yes. I think it’s very good that she got that feedback. I think for every young artist or whoever – you don’t even have to be young – if you want to pursue a certain activity, whether it’s art or sports or whatever, you need to have somebody like a guide.
“You need somebody who gives you feedback. You use the word ‘coach’ and it’s like in sport, it’s the same thing; if you train and you have a good coach who motivates you and tells you what you’re doing wrong and what you should do better obviously it’s going to be effective and probably you will move a little bit faster on your path to success.
“And I think the progress in Marie’s career was extremely fast and I believe that it was in a big way thanks to Thomas.”
Today Marie Tomanová works for major fashion magazines and brands, including even Instagram itself, and she photographs stars like Kim Gordon and Jeremy Allen White. Probably a lot of people who go to New York or elsewhere and try to make a success of their lives have talent. But what are the factors apart from her talent as a photographer that you think have led her to achieve the success that she has?
“I think she has a very lovable personality. I think she is a really hard worker and she is a professional; she has high professional standards in terms of executing the work but also in terms of communication as well.
“So I believe that her biggest strength – I’m not talking about talent, I’m talking about the mechanics of breaking through in the world of high-end fashion and, like you said, the big campaigns for big companies – is communication.
“She knows how to communicate with execs or creatives from those companies and agencies. She has a wonderful skill of communication, which is I think an integral part of success for pretty much everyone who ever succeeded in the arts.”
She also has a talent, I think, for talking the talk. She’s a great interviewee, she really knows what to say, she has great talking points. She’s really skilled in that way too, I think.
“Yes. I’m sure she is. I’m sure she thinks about what she’s going to say. She’s prepared and that’s also, I think, a big part of it: being ready, getting prepared, doing your homework – that’s all Marie as well.”
About the subject matter of her photography, she became known for taking photographs of quite striking young people, many of whom were not immediately identifiable in terms of gender. Obviously today gender and identity are major issues – did she kind of hit on a great subject and capture the zeitgeist in a sense by going into that area in her photography?
“Marie is extremely popular amongst young people, because they connect, they relate.”
“I believe that partly it could be, but obviously it’s not the only thing, because in five, 10 years things may be different.
“I believe that her focus in the photographs that you just described definitely brought her a huge audience.
“As you know, Marie is extremely popular amongst young people, because they connect, they relate.
“There is a beautiful scene in our film where [famous US photographer] Ryan McGinely, who wrote the introduction to her book Young American, describes it very precisely: ‘In Marie’s world people can simply be.’ It’s a lovely description. She radiates this energy.
“Ryan McGinely describes it very precisely: ‘In Marie’s world people can simply be.’”
“So I think it helped her, but obviously her work is wider than just what you described. She also did a lot of self-portraiture, which is beautiful, and she has also been praised for those first self portraits that she did in nature.
“Those works are beautiful and I think there’s big demand actually for those nowadays as well.
“So it might have helped her but obviously you cannot just focus on one thing that’s going to last forever, you know; she’s finding new themes and new ideas for her new books and new exhibitions.”
Why is the film called World Between Us?
“The title of the movie is actually inspired by one of the past exhibitions that Marie did in 2021, when she was visiting her home in the Czech Republic.
“I loved that title and I thought that it would be great if we could use it for the movie as well, because as you know the movie is not just a portrait of Marie – it’s a portrait of one great relationship and one great artistic partnership between Marie Tomanová, the photographer, and her husband, art historian Thomas Beachdel.
“So it’s the world between them. But as well it is the world between her and the subjects that she photographs.
“And a little bit also the world between the three of us, because we spent five years together when I was filming them, and I was part of their household and lives. So there was a certain dynamic between us as well – and I believe you can see that in the film.”
Absolutely. I also wanted to ask you about the style and the look of the film. It’s very fresh looking, kind of bright – and I was wondering, were you aiming to reflect her style with the film?
“Since we were friends and there was a really nice energy between us I was trying to get as close to her as possible with the camera.
“I was trying to see how far I could go with the camera, so in the movie you can see that there are a lot of extreme close-ups; I’m really close to her face, basically with the camera in her face.
“She got so used to me that they said that they even didn’t know I was there, so I was trying to find the closest distance to her. I wanted the audience to almost feel like they could touch her and I wanted the audience to feel that they are in my shoes, that they are the friend that I was when I was filming them.
“I wanted the audience to almost feel they are in my shoes, that they are the friend that I was when I was filming them.”
“So that was my main purpose. And yes, she also goes close to her subjects when she takes photographs, but definitely that wasn’t the only reason why I was filming her from this close proximity.
“Since we were in New York everything was more dense, that’s how I sort of picture it; I wanted it to be more claustrophobic among the high buildings and skyscrapers.
“And then when we are in the Czech Republic in her hometown [Mikulov], where you have the beautiful vineyards and countryside, I sort of backed up and the shots are wider and from a further distance.
“The logic was to distinguish between the world of New York City and the world of her Czech Republic.”
Towards the end of the film we see that have moved into a quite amazing looking new apartment in Manhattan, which to me almost kind of signals that she has achieved the American dream – she was an undocumented au pair and now she’s going place and really succeeding. Did that feel like a good place to kind of wrap up, because you had already been filming for five years?
“This is an interesting question because I always had it in my mind the first, second, third, fourth year of filming – it was like, When am I going to stop [laughs]? I have no idea when to stop!
“Then I realised I would have to find that right moment. And yes, that move to a new place was actually super helpful [laughs].
“But it wasn’t just the physical moving to another place, it was also that she as an artist, she moved forward in her career, it was a big move.
“Her life changed significantly and visually she changed as well a bit. She was still the same Marie, but in a different environment; she just moved on.
“All of these things that were happening kind of helped me to find the ending for the film.
“But again a strong theme in our movie is the theme of home and the search for roots and the meaning of home. And that’s why I decided to basically end the movie with a scene where she and her husband are in the Czech Republic and she is visiting her husband and her family house and her family.”
If we could speak about you for a few minutes, tell you us about your American story. What year did you move there? What brought you there?
“I moved there in 2005. I went to study film directing and film production at NYU Tisch School of the Arts. I did my Master’s there, I got a scholarship.
“During my studies I did one film exercise and I won the Directors Guild of America Award and then I got offers from various production companies.
“I picked one and I started working as a creative director in an animation studio in Manhattan and I stayed in New York.”
I’ve only been to New York a few times but I always think I would never have the energy for the place. What kept you there so long?
“I pose this question to myself as well, because it’s a really tough and demanding environment. It’s really hectic and work-wise it can be really stressful, as well.”
You have to work really hard there, it seems to me.
“Yes, you do. I think it’s a matter of scale. It’s so different in comparison to the Czech Republic.
“In New York you know if you have a job there can be another 30 people who can easily replace you. That pressure pushes you, you try harder, you try to do your best.
“It’s exhausting but you also, I would say, evolve. You evolve, you grow, so it’s not always bad [laughs]. So I guess enjoyed that.
“New York is exhausting but you also, I would say, evolve.”
“I was also telling myself, I’ll give it another year, I’ll stay for another year – and then all of a sudden I was there for, like, 17 years [laughs].
“It was kind of interesting. There are certain things about New York, like it’s tiring, you are happy once you can leave it, but once you leave it after a few days you start missing it so badly. It’s such a weird thing.
“A lot of people who live in New York describe it in the same way: You’re happy you can leave but then you start missing it so much and then you are so happy that you can go back [laughs].”
Are you now living here in Czechia? Or partly living here?
“I have American citizenship, so since 2020 I have spent more time here in the Czech Republic, because I have parents here and I want to spend time with them. So it was mostly for personal reasons why I’m here. They are older.
“But when I’m in Europe I’m not only spending my time in the Czech Republic, I’m also in Sweden and Denmark, where my boyfriend lives. So when I’m in Europe I migrate between the three countries.
“But I’m going back regularly to New York for work and we are planning, and hoping, that we will move back to New York eventually as well.”
I spoke to you six years ago in New York and you were talking about maybe making a film based on a story by [Czech-born screenwriter and screenwriting teacher] Milena Jelinek. Is that still happening?
“No, unfortunately it is not. As you probably know, Milena unfortunately passed away during Covid.”
Yes, at the very beginning – she was one of the first well-known people.
“Yes, it was horrible. So I basically decided to not to pursue that project after her death.”
Can you tell us what you are working on now? I heard you in another interview saying, one feature film, one documentary. Can you tell us anything about that?
“I can tell you more once we turn off the microphone, because my producer probably wouldn’t be happy that I’m sharing information at this point.
“But yes, one project is a documentary film and another one is a fiction film.
“We also have a documentary series that involves archaeology that we are developing.”
I have a few friends who are film directors and what I really admire is their persistence, that they will work on a project for five, seven years. How do you find that?
“Working on this project there were two moments when I thought I would quit the project, when I thought I would stop working on it, that I won’t be able to finish it, because I didn’t have money to basically work on it.
“Then also at one point I was extremely exhausted and I was thinking I probably just couldn’t continue.
“But then, I don’t know what happened, a few months passed and I started filming again.
“Maybe it’s the urge that you just want to finish it, because the worst thing that can happen is that you have an unfinished project – you’ve already spent years working on it and it’s just lying on your hard drive [laughs] and nothing’s happening.
“You don’t sleep because of it, that something’s not finished. I think it’s an urge to finish it and close it.
“Maybe that’s the reason why I decided to continue – and to search for a path how to find funds and actually finish it.”
I guess that’s even worse in the field of documentaries, because you’re often waiting for things to happen – it’s not like a screenplay, right?
“Yes. I have to tell you after this experience I still don’t understand how people make a living off making documentary films here in the Czech Republic.
“I still don’t understand how people make a living off making documentary films here.”
“I have no idea how they do it. It was extremely hard for us to secure the financing.
“I was looking for funds as well and was approaching various investors – and it was really hard to persuade them to give us some funds to finish film, for the finishing phase of the film.
“And it’s funny, because they were not large sums of money, they were kind of like a joke.
“But everybody was telling me, If we give it to you we don’t get anything out of it – why would we help you if there’s nothing that comes back to us from it?
“So it would be awesome if there were some kind of workshop or some manual [laughs] on how to finance documentary movies from the private sector.
“I’m sure there are people around the world who could teach us how do it and how to approach it.
“I believe there must be a way, because I ended up actually raising money from private investors at the end. But it just took a lot energy to find those people.
“I eventually found them, but if there were anyone who would want to teach us how to do it I definitely would attend such a seminar, 100 percent.”
