“We need to be willing to play, and to be curious”: Award-winning author Bára Dočkalová on writing Czech and teaching English
Bára Dočkalová is a Prague-based author, teacher and researcher, whose literary output captivates young Czech readers and this year won her a prestigious Magnesia Litera award. She spoke to Danny Bate about receiving the award and the ideas behind her victorious book Kost, as well as sharing her perspectives on teaching English in Czechia and how drama and music can make the language a lot more fun.
Bára, you are a person with many strings to your bow. You are a writer, a published author of three books now; you work in theatre with children; and you also teach the teaching of English at the Faculty of Education at Charles University. Let’s begin with the headline story, which is that your third book, your most recent book, Bone (Kost in Czech), a couple of months ago won the Magnesia Litera prize for a book for children and young people. How did it feel to win that prize?
“It felt really good! I have to admit it was better than I had expected, because I had been nominated before, and I thought this was already great and nothing could top it. Winning would probably feel great, but it wouldn't be much different from being nominated. When you're nominated, you already get so much attention. But it was much bigger and I still feel the consequences now.”
The title of this book means ‘bone’ and a bone is very much at the centre of this book. The action starts when this young boy, Matěj, is in a graveyard in the rural Czech countryside and he takes a bone home with him. But this is just the beginning. What concepts and feelings did you want young readers to explore while they're reading Kost?
“When I started writing or thinking about the book, I didn't have a plan. I didn't have a message that I wanted to pass on, or a moral or anything like that. I was just drawn to the idea of the story. I felt that there was this huge adventure waiting and I wanted to explore it myself. I was interested in what would happen if something like that happened to a little boy.
"I was just drawn to the idea of the story. I felt that there was this huge adventure waiting."
“Then, as I had a clear idea about what the adventure was going to look like, and I started to write the dialogues and so on, there were some situations that emerged where I felt here the hero or some other character could really learn something. Some of those moments were strong for me. They felt like, ’Oh, here is where I really want to say something, this is really important to me’. So I picked those topics, and wove them into the story at other places, so that it's a little bit more consistent.
“I think one of them, or the main one, would be the honouring of our ancestors, honouring the fact that they were here before us, that we are a continuation of their story somehow, that maybe they're still out there somewhere rooting for us, and that maybe we could we could use their strength sometimes, if we allow ourselves to feel it.
“There are more topics, for example: funerals, and the importance of funerals. At the beginning, the main character feels like it's something really boring and he doesn't want to go there. He didn't even know the uncle who died. Then throughout his adventures, he discovers that it's really a good idea if people get together. If they all witness it and they say goodbye together, it really helps them to move on.”
These are powerful ideas, and it could do some good for children to explore these things. One thing that struck me when I was looking at Kost and looking at your previous two books (The Secret of Pebble Mountain and The Battle for the Diamond) is that, in terms of plot, they don't seem to have that much in common. What would you say are the common themes threads woven through these three books?
“Well, they're all for the same age group, around ten to twelve years old and. I like to think of them as really different books, but they do have some things in common.
“One of them that was really not intentional is that there's always a boy and a girl, who for some reason don't get along. Either they are enemies or somehow one is scared of the other, and then they find themselves in situations where they are dependent on each other. They have to get to know each other and get each other's help to achieve something that they desire.
“Recently I read a review of Kost, and the author did a really good job comparing my books. I was amazed how many similarities she found there. One of them that I really hadn’t realised before is that in two of my books, there is some kind of an imaginary character that one of the main characters speaks to. I mean, I knew it was there, but I completely forgot. Now I see it's probably characteristic for my books that there is an imaginary individual who helps to move the story forward.”
It’s a little spooky too for somebody to recognise that, when these books come from your brain and you spent so much time with them! Kost has received not only this great acclaim in this country but also a wide readership. But that is all within Czechia. Can we look forward to English translations of these books?
“I would love that, but at the moment I don't have any news. I know that there is an excerpt being translated, so that we can present it to foreign publishing houses. There has been some interest, but nothing specific.”
And so when did you make the transition to writing fiction? I believe that the origins of The Secret of Pebble Mountain go back quite far in your life.
"I started writing fiction when I was maybe five. I had to do it."
“I started writing fiction when I was maybe five. I had to do it. I kept doing it ever since I learned to hold a pencil or pen. I had notebooks and scrap papers full of stories, usually just beginnings of stories. Not very often did I finish something.
“Actually the one that became The Secret of Pebble Mountain I did finish under a different name when I was eleven. Then I lost the manuscript, and that was actually what got me started when I was a grown-up. I was so sad that I lost that childhood manuscript that I started writing it again, and it made it all the way to being an actual book. So, for me it was never a decision or a change. It was what I did and it felt very natural”
“That manuscript was actually stolen. We were moving house. I was about twenty-five, and I had a box full of childhood art. I created stories, comic books. I made some photo comic books, taking pictures of my cousins and friends, and making stories by gluing speech bubbles in the photos. There were scripts and diaries.
“We were moving house, carrying boxes up and down. Then it was the evening and we had the last load. The car was full of stuff, but they were all things that were not valuable in any way for anyone. We were so tired and we thought, ‘Let's just leave it in the car, nobody's going to steal these things’. It was just boxes full of paper and some old vacuum cleaner, nothing really that could be interesting. When we came downstairs the next day, the car was actually robbed. Probably the thieves just saw a full car, and they didn't look at what they were taking. They probably went through the stuff only later, so probably they were disappointed, but I was devastated.
“But on the other hand, maybe I wouldn't have started writing it again. So maybe it was good, I don't know.”
It’s very good of you to find the silver lining in all of this! But yes, it's all come good and now you have three books to your name. Hopefully more in future?
“Yes, hopefully.”
These books that you've been describing here, they're written in Czech. Czech is one of your linguistic loves, but so is English. Tell me about a typical day for you now. You are involved with two institutions here in Prague: Charles University and DAMU. Are you currently both researching and teaching?
“I don't have a typical day; every day is different, and my schedule is not really regular. I teach at the Faculty of Education. I teach future primary-school teachers, who will be teaching English. I also have a class there called ‘drama in the English classroom’.
"I visit them at schools, I observe their lessons, and I do interviews with them. It looks promising."
“So even future English teachers get a little taste of using drama, which is what I love. It's my specialisation; I have been doing it since I started teaching.
“Then recently I decided to finally finish some work that I started a long time ago: writing English-language teaching materials, like guidelines for teachers who have no experience in drama, but who would like to do it. I've been doing it for a long time, to make their classes for young learners playful, and use some dramatic play. I decided to actually finish it and research how effective the teachers find it, if it's not something that they create themselves rather something that I designed and provided to them. Usually teachers who use drama are creative and find ways to do it, so it's going to be really interesting for me to see the results.
“I already have some teachers who are testing these materials and I’m really grateful for that. I visit them at schools, I observe their lessons, and I do interviews with them. It looks promising.”
And this research is also going towards a PhD?
“Yes. I was very reluctant to do my PhD. I knew I should do it, but it didn't feel like something I needed or wanted. But then, when I decided I could actually do it at DAMU, I thought, ‘Oh, this is such a great idea’. I could learn so much of the stuff that I still don't know, because I am an English teacher.
“I did take a lot of drama and theatre courses; I spent a year in California doing theatre, which was an amazing year. I learned a lot there. I go to workshops and conferences, but still I cannot call myself a drama teacher. At DAMU, I can at least partially catch up with that. It was a very good decision and I love being there.”
You've been teaching English for twenty years now. This country has changed a great deal over those twenty years, as has this country's linguistic scene and relationship with English. You must have a really interesting perspective on the Czechs and the English language, compared with back when you first started. How do you think young Czechs’ relationship with English has changed?
"Now the time that they're exposed to English is increasing, so of course they're learning much faster."
“I have taught all kinds of age groups, but I've always really loved teaching young learners. There I think we can see the change the most. Young learners are surrounded by video games and can watch videos and cartoons in English. Some of them are fluent by the time they enter first grade. Some of them are not fluent at all, they're beginners, but then you see them after the summer and suddenly they're so advanced. You ask, ‘What happened? Did you go to England?’ and they say ‘No, I just played some games’.
“We cannot take it for granted; it's not everybody. Not all parents allow it of course, and it has a lot of disadvantages, with a lot of screen time. But it's here, and it creates huge differences in levels of English in the classroom.
“It's also so much easier, because the problem in the past was that children had English maybe once or twice a week. Apart from that, they didn't hear it. They were not exposed to it. Now the time that they're exposed to English is increasing, so of course they're learning much faster.”
English is a very advantageous language to have. But do you worry as an English teacher that from an early age, differences will emerge between kids who have access to English and those who don't? And that these kids may get a head start in life that will then carry forward into their adult life?
“Yes of course. I believe that children who do not have access to a lot of English input have a disadvantage over those who do. On the other hand, I do think that nowadays everybody can have that exposure.
“Also we have better and better English teachers. There were always some really great, outstanding teachers, but being a teacher of future teachers, I'm very hopeful in terms of who I meet there. My students are all really lovely and amazing, and they will do a great job. I think they will also motivate the children and the parents to get exposure to English not just in the classroom, where we have 45 minutes and a lot of children. Of course, we can do our best, but still, it will not get them enough contact with the language.”
And how has the teaching of English changed over the past twenty years? I imagine that there were a lot of outdated ideas when you first started. Maybe your work has contributed to changing those ideas?
“That would be an honour. I sometimes do some workshops for teachers, introducing some fun ideas and activities that they take into their classroom, and they write to me that it works that I'm always very pleased. But I don't think I have made any major contribution to the development of how we teach English. Maybe when I finally publish something.
“But yes, you're right that in my experience a lot has changed. When I started learning English myself, I think I was in the fifth grade because I was lucky enough to be in a science-oriented class where they allowed us to learn English, even before the revolution. At that young age, everything was the grammar translation method, translating sentences, trying to analyse and apply rules. Nowadays we know so much more about how language is acquired.
“Even though of course there are varying opinions, we live in the ‘post-method’ era at the moment. No one single method works entirely for everyone, and every teacher should pick the best from all the methods that they have encountered.
“I think it's a lot more communicative now, but then again, only communication without any attention to form or grammar also doesn't work. If we just pour input over students and assume that they're going to notice all the rules and regularities in the language, it doesn't work. Not all of them notice that you use S if there's more of something. You can speak to children as much as you want and say ‘banana, bananas’, but they may not notice that there is a difference, because they're focused on the meaning.
“There needs to be some attention to form. It needs to be communicative, of course. It needs to be playful and we need to learn it in concrete situations. That is, I think, very different from what it used to be.”
What should teachers then take from you, especially in terms of incorporating theatre and music?
“First of all, I would like to say that I've been incorporating drama and theatre, and theatre is not the same as drama. I make a distinction. Of course, drama can include theatre, but I mean drama education, elements like role play, improvisation. There doesn't have to be an audience. You can just play in class, just for fun, and nobody has to watch formally. As soon as you pretend you're someone you're not, or you're somewhere where you're not, and there's some sort of conflict or dramatic tension, then we can talk about drama.
“I would like to say: don't be afraid of it, because it's so much fun. I still encounter teachers who say, ‘I don't want to do drama, I'm not an actress or an actor’. You don't have to be; you just need to be willing to play.
“It's so much fun, because drama allows you to bring anything you want into the classroom. You can be anyone, you can be anywhere. You can experience all kinds of fun situations that can be ridiculous. They might be situations that you will never experience in real life, but the language that you use in those situations is the same language you use in real life, in everyday situations. It’s the same phrases, the same chunks of language, the same grammar. It can make it really memorable if you're fighting with someone, on a pirate ship, or exploring a new planet. It's an adventure, and it can make it more memorable.
“So I hope what teachers could learn from me when I meet them is that drama is not something that only some chosen people can do. It's in everybody. We need to be willing to play, and to be curious.”
I think I really would have liked to have learned English from you! Thank you so much for talking to me.
“Thank you so much for having me.”
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