Two Czech views - one Europhile, one Eurosceptic - on where the European Union is heading
The last few days have seen two developments that could have a huge bearing on the Czech Republic's future. Firstly Czechs voted in a referendum ten days ago in favour of joining the European Union on the first of May next year. Secondly, last weekend's European Union Summit in Greece set out a first rough blueprint for reforms to the union, aimed at making the Brussels bureaucracy both more accountable and more efficient. In a few years Czechs could be in a very different EU than the one we've grown to know. To discuss these developments I'm joined by Jan Kasl, former Prague mayor and founder of the strongly pro-European political party, the European Democrats, and by the London-based writer and journalist, Benjamin Kuras, one of the best-known Eurosceptics in the Czech Euro-debate.
To start with, the referendum on joining the European Union showed overwhelming support for EU membership, but at the same time the turn-out was only just over fifty percent. Was this basically good or bad news for the Czech Republic?
Jan Kasl: "My expectation was for 60 percent to vote and 75 percent to say yes. It was 55 and 77, so I'm more-or-less in."
So you think it was good news.
Jan Kasl: "I think it's a strong "yes". Of course it's only 45 percent of the total number of citizens for the European Union, but it's similar to neighbouring countries and it's a strong "yes"."
It's still a bit shocking, isn't it, that there's such a major development, and it's only about half the population that's interested.
Jan Kasl: "People do not trust politicians, people do not trust the political system so they do not trust anything the politicians are bringing in. They don't take it as their future. They believe - 'they ask us stupid questions - so why should we come'."
That's the fault of the politicians - like yourself.
Jan Kasl: "I agree."
Benjamin Kuras, what do you feel?
Benjamin Kuras: "I never expected anything other than the result that came. All I was trying to do for the last two, maybe three years, was to bring Czechs' attention to certain negative aspects of the European Union. If I hadn't done that I think they may have gone unnoticed, and I think that it was only in the last two months before the referendum that some of the press caught onto the idea that maybe the debate should be more even-handed than it had been up till then. I think that what I may have achieved is at least that those who voted for EU membership, or some of those who voted for it, gave it a little bit of deeper thought than they would have otherwise, and that if they decided to go in, maybe they knew what they were getting themselves into, more than they would have otherwise. Would you agree that that is the case?"
Jan Kasl: "Yes. By the way, what do you consider the biggest disadvantage, the biggest trouble that you brought attention to?"
Benjamin Kuras: "Let me reverse the question. You voted "yes" and I would like to know what you have actually voted for?"
Jan Kasl: "I voted for the future, to have a chance in the united Europe at being a country - a small country of 10 million - in the heart of Europe. I may understand your British approach, because Great Britain being on an island, being cut off from Europe in splendid isolation, being out of the everyday European life, can afford such an approach. But for the Czech Republic we cannot follow that pattern that behaviour. We are in an absolutely different situation."
Benjamin Kuras: "Even if, with the entry treaty the Czech Republic and all the new countries are accepting every letter of all the regulations that have been passed up till then, there are still very few people who have actually read the accession treaty, there are very few politicians who have read the accession treaty, there is hardly anybody out in the street who knows what they were actually signing, and yet, if the question had been: 'Are you in favour of European integration and do you want the Czech Republic to be part of a broader Europe?', then of course the answer is "yes" for everybody. But the question was: do you agree that the accession should be on the basis of the accession treaty, which nobody has read."
But on the other hand, the European Union isn't just about the treaty of accession. There are so many other aspects. It's more of a philosophical or a political issue.
Benjamin Kuras: "Let me add, not to cause any confusion, that I have always been very much in favour of European integration up to the point of the Maastricht Treaty. The idea of travelling right through the European continent without having even to change money, or being able to gain employment wherever you want to, and so on, always appealed to me and I was very much in favour of it. The Maastricht Treaty put a completely new structure into operation, which removes decision-making power further away from the citizen than it was otherwise, and the new constitution is going even further than that, to the point where the citizen will lose power over deciding anything on his future."
On the other hand the constitution, as has been put together by the convention and which was discussed last weekend in Greece, hasn't been approved in the form that the convention proposed it. There will be long discussion on its precise form - democratic discussion - of the European Union's constitution and where the union is going. Aren't you in danger of scaremongering and implying that pro-Europeans inevitably want a super-state, a federal Europe, where in fact there's a very complex debate going on within the European Union, which is not that simple?
Benjamin Kuras: "Well yes, we are in George Orwell's centenary now, and maybe the Europeans really do want to have decision power removed from them to some sort of a super-state that tells them what they want or should do."
But you haven't answered my question. Within Europe there are lots of forces, trying to take Europe in different directions. There will be some kind of consensus, eventually muddled out, which won't be this federal super-state that you say you're scared of.
Benjamin Kuras: "Let me quote Signor Prodi from two days ago. I think I read it in the Daily Telegraph yesterday on the plane. He said that there is no way that anything is going to stop the forces for a federalized Europe. If that is what he says, that is what he means, and the forces are stronger than the forces of independence and liberty, I think."
I'd like to turn to Jan Kasl. Given that the Czech Republic has only had full democracy for the last 13 or 14 years - it's just getting used to deciding on its own future and taking responsibility for its own decisions - isn't there a serious danger that by giving up part of this sovereignty, it will actually be a step backwards for a young democracy?
Jan Kasl: "I'm not worried about the transfer of a certain part of the decision-making process - let's call it that. I know it's very difficult. I'm not supporting any speeding up of the process, not like creating artificially, like social engineers, the structure and then implementing it to Europe. I feel and I understand that European nations are ready to discuss closer cooperation, because they have two options. The European Union in my opinion is at a certain limit of how to manage fifteen countries, fifteen states, plus a new ten that are coming. So something has to happen. Two ways are possible. One way is back, to dissolve it, going back to the Rome Treaty or wherever, to just economic cooperation. The other is to continue."
Benjamin Kuras: "Aren't you afraid that some of the more powerful nations will be pulling their weight around at the expense of the smaller ones?"
Jan Kasl: "I don't think so. Look at the Belgians, look at the Dutch, look at the Danes or Luxembourg - four hundred thousand people. I don't have a feeling that small countries are losing. I believe that small countries can benefit more than being alone, being separate, being part of a system that they cannot influence. To be part of a hundred percent deciding with three-and-a-half percent of mandates is better than to have hundred percent decision-making power on a very small territory of three-and-a-half percent size."
Benjamin Kuras: "I believe that in all the treaties and the constitution and in all the laws of the European Union, there are too many things that can go wrong. And I believe in Murphy's Law, that whatever can go wrong, will go wrong."
Jan Kasl: "I believe in Murphy's Law too."
